Smitty City

I know this isn't an "answer" - but I wanted to let you know I'll get back with you on this. Since I'll be gone this next week, it might be a bit - but I have been going through this same thing - so I'm up to talk. Bear with me :)

You make a good point, bro! I think these activities Christians take part in are not about abandoning legalism/morality. The main problem is, to non-chistians, these things are not a "christian" thing to do. Unfortunately, they dont look at a persons heart but at their actions to see if Christ is living in us (believers). I hate it too, always being concerned with what non-christians view us as, but if it makes a difference to the Kingdom of God, what image our actions display should be something we should always consider in every decision we make!!!
P.S. I cant wait for the party on Sun.

I know my answer but i am just letting you know i am going to come back at a later time and hash it out...i hope it makes sense

i couldn't come up with a short, comment-friendly response, so I wrote a far-too-long response on my blog

so i decided I didn't like my post and took it down to work on it some more...

well...please put it back up, dave. I want to know what you think.

Kenneth read your post the other day and told me that I needed to log on and think about this issue. Here is just my first thought...
If we say that this is a "moral" issue, is it because we are being too "legalistic?"

There have been certain circumstances where I do not agree with 'restrictions' placed upon Christians because I do not believe it is a moral issue but rather a legalistic issue. While I feel that the people who place these restrictions are being too legalistic, they claim that these restrictions are moral issues. Hence, they may say that I lack a moral stance, and I say they are just being legalistic AND vice versa. Does this make sense?

My above comment does not necessarily reflect my view on the gambling/drinking/smoking issue specifically, but anything.

I agree with Kathryn, although we may feel freedom to partake in certain things, we should not do so because the appearance and its affect on others, particularly non-believers and babes in Christ.

thank you, kristy

I can just see the picture of Eve at the foot of the 'apple' tree in the Garden of Eden----- " Did HE really mean this tree, Adam? HE probably meant more than one piece at a time was sin? Don't you think HE really should have left it up to us? "

Andrew Bonar said, " It is not the importance of the law, but the majesty of the Lawgiver, that is to be the standard of obedience....Some, indeed, might reckon such minute and arbitrary rules as these as trifling. But the principle involved in obedience or disobedience was none other than the same principle which was tried in Eden at the foot of the forbidden tree. It is really this: Is the Lord to be obeyed in all things whatsoever He commands? Is He a holy Lawgiver? Are His creatures bound to give implicit assent to His will?"

We can not categorize sin if we are to live a life of holiness. God will not let us get away with that kind of attitude.

And as much as I hate to be one of the "old school" ---you will see things more clearly with age. Trust me, I regret helping two of my friends in college get abortions. AT the time, it was 'no big deal'-----Praise God that he uses our sins in youth to benefit others as we grow in wisdom in HIM.

thank you, keith...great comment

First of all, from what are you basing your assertions that in the 70's or earlier gambling & drinking would have been unacceptable among Christians? Maybe in certain places in Kentucky, but I doubt it in other places.

It's my understanding that Baptists were good brewers of alcohol back in the late 1800's. I've heard jokes/rumors about an abandoned alcohol still or something under Southern Seminary's campus. Those may not be true, but they're based on the truth that those people used to drink.

People obviously drank wine in Paul's day, as he told Timothy to. Even Al Mohler admits that there is no Biblical basis for complete abstinence.

That said, I think things like poker have just gained greater prominence in pop culture (TV) than it would have in the 50's-90's. Probably because it is gambling, and considered a vise.

Do I think that the church has lost certain passions for following Christ in joy, and have lost sight of the purpose of the church? I think certain people in the church have.
I think this symptom is shown in 2 types of church members:
1. Legalistic ones who would rather bash churches that close their doors on Christmas day than strive for unity and encourage real, genuine worship at home as well as in the sanctuary.

2. Ones who squander great amounts of their resources on things like the lottery, or poker, or tobacco because they have no desire to spend their resources deepening their relationship with Christ.

I agree with Dave's statement that some of these things (drinking, sports, cigars) may not be wrong per se, but may indeed draw your heart from Christ.

I have strong Christian friends in many countries that drink in moderation, and play poker or the lottery. I don't condemn them, or refuse to associate with them. It's their conscience, not mine.

But, I've made a decision for my own life on what my values are. These values do not include gambling, drinking, or tobacco. I have a clear conscience on it, and feel fine in passing my values on to "disciples" who I may "mentor" or to my own children. I feel like these things personally draw me away from Christ.

I agree with Dave: A God-focused joy and passion is most important. Is your poker night taking you away from time spent memorizing scripture? (Memorizing scripture being a good way to meditate and savor the joy of all that God is for us in Christ Jesus). Is your tobacco habit frowned on by your dentist as cancer-causing? If so, why risk time and life on problems that your children will have to pay for?

Our church needs a deeper passion for Christ, and His church. More love for each other, and more love for the world that is dying w/out Christ.

i did write a response after my first comment but i guess it never made it up oh well...since i have returned from nashville i have had much time to think. I would first like to say that time challies wrote an excellent post on gambling and legalism, Those who are involved in the discussion go check it out, (http://www.challies.comarchives/001565.php)

His points are quite biblical and quite thought provoking.

I think my intial comment went along the lines of no we have not abandoned either. I like c.j. mahaneys definition of legalism in which he says it is trying to gain favor or forgiveness by following a set of rules. In that sense i think we are all legalists. maybe not conciously but we all fit our lives and behavior around a set of instructions we find in scripture. heck a good portion of the scriptures is law. the truth of the matter is that Christ in the grace of God, has provided a freedom. Not a freedom to sin all the more, but a freedom from the judgment of our sin. I think keith is dead on, we are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness. But rightesousness is not found in found in for example, not having a beer, not smoking a cigar, or not playing a $5 game of hold'em, or following whatever other laws we think we sshould in scripture, we are free from that by the blood of Christ. our righteousness is Christs righteousness imputed to us, and that means freedom.

Now the issue of morlaity seems to be closely tied. the moral standard for all humans is a holy God, and is personfied and exemplified perfectly in Christ. Pre-regeneration we find ourselves unavoidably falling way short of that standard, and impossibly seeking to do so. Even after we are born again we fight the same battle. But this time our battle is one, and the holiness we seek after is not for our edification, but to God's glory. our pursuit of holiness is a response to God in the grace he has given us, and it cannot be done alone, but by the righteousness of Christ, and the work of the spirit.

Ok so i kind of chased some rabbit and i do not even kknow my orginal intent, but i would say this...is having a beer wrong? no is it necessarily beneficial? not completely is it wrong for others to look at those who might have a beer and say "you are a dirty sinner for letting that devils water touch your lips!!!"? most definitely

i think as christians we need to be honest with ourselves and others say sin is sin. freedom in Christ is total freedom in Christ. and yet our actions must at all times reflect the mind of Christ, and do all that we do to the glory of God.

Smitty- I love the post man, tell mama that I was jumpin up and down when I read her comment and the Bonar quote. He is one cool calvinist/hymn writer/dude!

so i just wanted to add in retrospect, i may have sounded like the "freedom in Christ" guy, like Dave mentioned, but i agree one hundred percent with him. I went back and read over my sermon, on phil. 1 and affirmed it all the more, that our life is Christ, in morality, ministry, and everything else. It is to live with an eternal perspective.

I can never make sense in comments so please take it easy on me :)

well...honestly, guys....my intentions in bringing up this issue were not to encourage people to pick a point on the 'line' and defend it to the death. I was going to compose a sequel post to help steer the dicussion back to what I believe is the correct track. But I see that everyone who made a comment nailed in on the head. I thought that most would pick a side...but everyone has seemed to transcend the line.

The question of right vs. wrong or morality vs. legalism is secondary to this one: ARE WE ADVANCING THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITH EVERYTHING THAT IS WITHIN US? - answer that and the rest will fall in place. I appreciate all the comments. You guys nailed it.